These three are one

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5

John 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

WHO IS THE ONE SPEAKING?
HOW MANY PERSON IS SPEAKING?
HOW COME "WE" AND "OUR" WERE USED FOR THE FIRST PERSON "I"?
WHO ARE THESE WITNESSES THAT TESTIFY ALONG WITH THE SPEAKER?

1 John 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

ResLight
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These three are one Jul 5, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5

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Post by ResLight on Jul 5, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5

Please disregard the earlier post that I deleted; I was thinking of John 4:22.

Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

John 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

WHO IS THE ONE SPEAKING?

Jesus, the Son of the Most High, was the one speaking.

Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

HOW MANY PERSON IS SPEAKING?

Only one person was doing the actual speaking.

Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

HOW COME "WE" AND "OUR" WERE USED FOR THE FIRST PERSON "I"?

One thing we can state is that Jesus was not saying the he was more than one person.

John Gill wrote concerning this:

Meaning either himself, and John the Baptist his forerunner, who preached the same doctrine of regeneration, internal sanctification, and evangelical repentance, as well as outward reformation, as necessary to entrance into the kingdom of heaven, or the Gospel dispensation, he declared was just at hand; or his disciples with himself, who were now with him, and whom he had called to preach the same truths he himself did; or the prophets of the Old Testament, who agreed with him in these things; or the Father that was with him, and never left him alone, and the Holy Spirit that was upon him, by whom he was anointed to preach these things, and who spoke them in him; or else he may use the plural number of himself alone, as being one in authority, and speaking with it, as he sometimes did, ( Mark 4:30 ) , and the rather this seems to be the sense, since he immediately, in the next verse, speaks in the singular number, "if I have told you earthly things" Now Christ must needs thoroughly, and certainly know what he spoke, since he was not only the omniscient God, but, as Mediator, had all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in him, and the spirit of wisdom and knowledge rested on him.

We should note that, Nicodemus, being only one person, also stated to Jesus, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." (John 3:2) Similarly, the question might be asked, Why did Nicodemus say, "we" insted of "I", since Nicodemus is only one person?

Quite possibly Nicodemus was speaking of himself and his fellow teachers as "we"; likewise, Jesus could have been speaking of himself and his disciples as "we", or he and John the Baptist as "we". On the other hand, he could quite possibly have been speaking of both the testimony of himself and the testimony of his God and Father. -- Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 8:16-18.

Or he could have just been using the word "we" to emphasize his authority as the Son of God who had been with in heaven with his Father. Jesus, having been with his God and Father (John 17:1,3,5) before he became flesh, and having learned from his God and Father (John 8:28), could speak of both the earthly and heavenly things. -- John 3:12.

If I and my father provided the same testimony concerning something, and I, although one individual, stated, "we testified....", would this mean that I am two persons, or that I am one human being who is more than one person? Furthermore, in John 4:22, Jesus stated to "the Samaritan woman", "We worship that which we know." Jesus, being only one person, used the word "we" in this case for the evident reason that not he, but the Jews, consist of more than one person.

Jun 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

WHO ARE THESE WITNESSES THAT TESTIFY ALONG WITH THE SPEAKER?

1 John 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

While I believe most of the above to be spurious, nevertheless, all three do indeed bear testimony; this does not mean that they are all one God Almighty.

Regarding 1 John 5:7, see
jesus.rlbible.com/?p=1008

Last Edit: Nov 19, 2021 18:15:34 GMT -5 by ResLight

bornagainchristian Full Member Posts: 177	These three are one Jul 6, 2013 23:06:57 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 6, 2013 23:06:57 GMT -5 JOHN 3:11 IS A SOLID INTERNAL BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE BRACKETED PORTION OF 1ST JOHN 5:7 IS INDEED PART OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT OR AUTOGRIPA.

ResLight
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These three are one Jul 12, 2013 16:37:16 GMT -5

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Post by ResLight on Jul 12, 2013 16:37:16 GMT -5

Jul 6, 2013 23:06:57 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

JOHN 3:11 IS A SOLID INTERNAL BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE BRACKETED PORTION OF 1ST JOHN 5:7 IS INDEED PART OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT OR AUTOGRIPA.

There is nothing at all in John 3:11 about three being one. Even if none of what appears in the Textus Receptus at 1 John 5:7 is spurious, there is still nothing there about three persons in one God, or three persons all of whom are the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

jesus.rlbible.com/?p=1008

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5

SO NOW, YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT 1ST JOHN 5:7 IS NOT SPURIOUS AFTER ALL.
OK, LET'S GO ON TO THE TEXTS

John 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

1 John 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

IF YOU LOOK ON THESE TWO VERSES, AND YOU PUT THEM SIDE BY SIDE; THIS IS WHAT YOU WILL SEE:
1) SINGULAR SPEAKS FOR PLURAL (ONE IS THREE)
2) PLURAL IS REPRESENTED BY SINGULAR (THREE ARE ONE)
3) IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS A PERFECT UNITY BETWEEN THE THREE

THE QUESTION IS, HOW COULD THERE BE A PERFECT UNITY BETWEEN THE THREE?
THE ANSWER IS FOUND IN DEUTERONOMY 6:4

ResLight
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These three are one Jul 21, 2013 21:14:59 GMT -5

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Post by ResLight on Jul 21, 2013 21:14:59 GMT -5

Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

SO NOW, YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT 1ST JOHN 5:7 IS NOT SPURIOUS AFTER ALL.

No, as I plainly stated: "I believe most of the above to be spurious." However, even if it is not spurious, there is still nothing there about a triune God.

Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

OK, LET'S GO ON TO THE TEXTS

John 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

1 John 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

If Jesus was speaking of himself only as being plural in John 3:11, then you would have Jesus claiming to be more than one person. If Jesus was speaking of himself and his God and Father, as in John 8:16-18, then he was speaking of himself and his God and Father; this would not mean that he was claiming to be God Almighty. Any such thought would have to be imagined, assumed, added to and read into what he stated.

Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

IF YOU LOOK ON THESE TWO VERSES, AND YOU PUT THEM SIDE BY SIDE; THIS IS WHAT YOU WILL SEE:
1) SINGULAR SPEAKS FOR PLURAL (ONE IS THREE)
2) PLURAL IS REPRESENTED BY SINGULAR (THREE ARE ONE)
3) IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS A PERFECT UNITY BETWEEN THE THREE

I have no doubt whatsoever that God and Jesus are in perfect agreement with each other and that God's Holy Spirit is surely in perfect agreement with God to whom the Holy Spirit belongs. Jesus prayed that all his followers enter into the same unity that he has with his God. (John 17:11,21,22,23) Jesus was certainly not praying that his followers become united with himself and his Father as one God. -- See also John 14:20.

Jul 15, 2013 3:08:45 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

THE QUESTION IS, HOW COULD THERE BE A PERFECT UNITY BETWEEN THE THREE?
THE ANSWER IS FOUND IN DEUTERONOMY 6:4

There is nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus and his God cannot be in perfect unity with each other, except that Jesus be the one Jehovah of Deuteronomy 6:4. Of course, the Holy Spirit, belonging to Jehovah, is essentially Jehovah Himself; this does not mean that the Holy Spirit of God is a separate and distinct person of God to whom it belongs.

Last Edit: Nov 19, 2021 15:19:21 GMT -5 by ResLight

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Jul 23, 2013 1:25:08 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 23, 2013 1:25:08 GMT -5

ANYWAY, I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN MY POINT. LATER ON WE WOULD COME BACK ON THESE TWO VERSES JOHN 3:11 AND 1ST JOHN 5:7 WHENEVER WE ENCOUNTER VERSES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHERE SINGULAR SPEAKS FOR PLURAL AND PLURAL SPEAKS AS SINGULAR.

ResLight
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These three are one Jul 28, 2013 21:56:36 GMT -5

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Post by ResLight on Jul 28, 2013 21:56:36 GMT -5

Jul 23, 2013 1:25:08 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

ANYWAY, I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN MY POINT.

If the point is that you are claiming that John 3:11 has anything to do with Jesus being a person of a triune God, no, there is nothing in John 3:11 that proves such a point.

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5

I did not say that the person of the Son is a person of the triune God; you are putting words in my mouth. What I said was: "a singular can speak as plural and plural can speak as singular".
Let me reiterate my points again so that you won't get confuse to what I'm trying to convey:

1) John 3:11 is a solid internal biblical evidence that the bracketed portion of 1st John 5:7 is not spurious, but rather part of the original text or autogripa.
2) John 3:11 and 1st John 5:7 when put side by side, do reveal that:
a) Singular speaks as Plural (One is Three)
b) Plural speaks as Singular (Three are One)
3) In other words, there is a perfect unity between the three
4) How could these three be in perfect unity? The answer is found in Deuteronomy 6:4; these three are united Yahweh.

ResLight
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These three are one Aug 2, 2013 20:15:42 GMT -5

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Post by ResLight on Aug 2, 2013 20:15:42 GMT -5

Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

I did not say that the person of the Son is a person of the triune God; you are putting words in my mouth. What I said was: "a singular can speak as plural and plural can speak as singular".
Let me reiterate my points again so that you won't get confuse to what I'm trying to convey:

1) John 3:11 is a solid internal biblical evidence that the bracketed portion of 1st John 5:7 is not spurious, but rather part of the original text or autogripa.

I see nothing at all in John 3:11 that provides any evidence at all related to 1 John 5:7, except that one create such evidence within one's own imagination; if you want to believe that 1 John 5:7 is not spurious, that is up to you.

Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

2) John 3:11 and 1st John 5:7 when put side by side, do reveal that:
a) Singular speaks as Plural (One is Three)
b) Plural speaks as Singular (Three are One)

I have never said that one cannot represent a unity between several persons. I don't know, however, that that is what Jesus had in mind when spoke the words recorded in John 3:11; in John 3:11, there is no mention of "three".

See my studies related to the word "HEN" on 1 John 5:7, as well John 10:30:
1 John 5:7 – Does This Speak of three as One God?
John 10:30 and the Oneness of Yahweh and Jesus

Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

3) In other words, there is a perfect unity between the three

I do not deny that there is a perfect unity between Jesus, his God, and God's Holy Spirit.

Jul 31, 2013 4:04:54 GMT -5 bornagainchristian said:

4) How could these three be in perfect unity? The answer is found in Deuteronomy 6:4; these three are united Yahweh.

There is nothing at all in John 3:11, 1 John 5:7 or Deuteronomy 6:4 that gives anyone any reason to think that Jesus, and the God of Jesus, and God's Holy Spirit are three persons of the one Yahweh. The fact that the three are united does not make them one God, or one Yahweh. If it does, then the unity that Jesus prayed for his followers with him and his God, would mean that Yahweh must become many more persons than three. -- John 17:11,21-23.

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Aug 4, 2013 4:32:24 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 4, 2013 4:32:24 GMT -5

A person is somebody who has his own mind, own will and own emotion.
How could there be perfect unity between several persons?
Besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; could you give me any example that several persons have perfect unity, (united in everything).

alexanderwinslow
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These three are one Aug 10, 2013 19:40:40 GMT -5

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Post by alexanderwinslow on Aug 10, 2013 19:40:40 GMT -5

Hello bornagainchristian

I notice that you are still using quotes from a translation which continues to use phraseology which although correct at the time of origin, carry the ancient mode of wording which conveys a different context of reading compared to the twentieth and twenty-first century.

Also, the scriptures used are directed at the anointed ‘little flock’ and have no application outside of this group. Even your designation ‘born again Christian’ again applies only to this group who when born again as immortal spirit creatures, are also invisible to the naked human eye!

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

This line refers to the anointed ‘little flock’ to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs and to which they are called. (Luke 12:32)

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One God and Father of all is confirmed by Jesus’ words: “I am now ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” If he was God-incarnate, how then could he ascend to himself?

There are three specific Gods mentioned in the Bible:

(1) Almighty God whose name is Jehovah. (Exodus 6:3) KJV
(2) The Mighty God and Prince of Peace [Christ Jesus] (Isaiah 9:6) KJV
(3) The god of this world [Satan] (2 Corinthians 4:4) KJV

If Almighty God was ‘in you all’ in the same sense as rendered by the Trinitarians, then the so-called Trinity has just increased to 144,003!

In the name of Yeshua ha Notzri Messiah Liberatus

Pathfinder in truth and hope

Alexander Winslow

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Aug 12, 2013 1:28:51 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 12, 2013 1:28:51 GMT -5

Aug 10, 2013 19:40:40 GMT -5 alexanderwinslow said:

Hello bornagainchristian

I notice that you are still using quotes from a translation which continues to use phraseology which although correct at the time of origin, carry the ancient mode of wording which conveys a different context of reading compared to the twentieth and twenty-first century.

Also, the scriptures used are directed at the anointed ‘little flock’ and have no application outside of this group. Even your designation ‘born again Christian’ again applies only to this group who when born again as immortal spirit creatures, are also invisible to the naked human eye!

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

This line refers to the anointed ‘little flock’ to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs and to which they are called. (Luke 12:32)

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One God and Father of all is confirmed by Jesus’ words: “I am now ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” If he was God-incarnate, how then could he ascend to himself?

There are three specific Gods mentioned in the Bible:

(1) Almighty God whose name is Jehovah. (Exodus 6:3) KJV
(2) The Mighty God and Prince of Peace [Christ Jesus] (Isaiah 9:6) KJV
(3) The god of this world [Satan] (2 Corinthians 4:4) KJV

If Almighty God was ‘in you all’ in the same sense as rendered by the Trinitarians, then the so-called Trinity has just increased to 144,003!

In the name of Yeshua ha Notzri Messiah Liberatus

Pathfinder in truth and hope

Alexander Winslow

I wouldn't answer anything about the Doctrine of Salvation, the topic here is about Trinity and the Deity of Christ. For now we would concentrate on this topic, I will challenge you on your Doctrine of Salvation later.

Show me this verse where it says that "there are three Gods".
Not everybody who was called God is God.
1) Why do you think the bible always keep saying that God is unique, that there is none like him, that he alone is God?
2) What separates God from everyone and everything? In other words, what makes God, God?

Who told you that if God is with you, you become God? No Trinitarian will ever tell you that.

alexanderwinslow
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These three are one Aug 14, 2013 20:52:38 GMT -5

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Post by alexanderwinslow on Aug 14, 2013 20:52:38 GMT -5

Hello bornagainchristian,

You really need to check your Bible which actually defines the three Gods in both detail and status. Almighty God states himself in Exodus 6:3 that he is Almighty and therefore without equal. Isaiah 9:6 cofirms that Jesus'rank is a 'Mighty'God and not 'Almighty', while 2 Corinthians 4:4 confirms that Satan is the god of this presnt world order and therefore a lesser status than the first two. Now this is the word of God which informs us of this, so if you have a problem with this; I suggest that you take it up with him because he has caused it to be written.

The Trinity is a pagan man-made ideal and an affront to the Almighty who would cease to be this if anyone at all was his equal.Unlike Satan, Jesus never entertained the idea to become equalto his Father Almighty God. This is why he said to his Apostles: "I ascend now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." So how could he be the God of himself?

What separates God from everyone and everything? God is a 'being' form everlasting to everlasting, everything elae is a creation. The term human being is actually incorrect, we are all human creatures. Even the Word is the first born of all creation and through him all other things were created under his Father's instructions, read Proverbs 8:22 onwards.

It is Jesus who said to his anointed: "I am in the father and the Father is in me; I am in you and you are in me." Now the correct reading of this is that they are all in accord with one another. But But the Trinitarian states that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are all 'equal' three in one. So using that same principle for Jesus' words we end up with 144,003! Also 1+1+1=3, yet according to the Trinitarian 1+1+1=1

I've heard of brainwarp, but this is ridiculus!Perhaps they all need a course in mathematics!

bornagainchristian
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These three are one Aug 18, 2013 4:11:03 GMT -5

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Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 18, 2013 4:11:03 GMT -5

Aug 14, 2013 20:52:38 GMT -5 alexanderwinslow said:

Hello bornagainchristian,

You really need to check your Bible which actually defines the three Gods in both detail and status. Almighty God states himself in Exodus 6:3 that he is Almighty and therefore without equal. Isaiah 9:6 cofirms that Jesus'rank is a 'Mighty'God and not 'Almighty', while 2 Corinthians 4:4 confirms that Satan is the god of this presnt world order and therefore a lesser status than the first two. Now this is the word of God which informs us of this, so if you have a problem with this; I suggest that you take it up with him because he has caused it to be written.

The Trinity is a pagan man-made ideal and an affront to the Almighty who would cease to be this if anyone at all was his equal.Unlike Satan, Jesus never entertained the idea to become equalto his Father Almighty God. This is why he said to his Apostles: "I ascend now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." So how could he be the God of himself?

What separates God from everyone and everything? God is a 'being' form everlasting to everlasting, everything elae is a creation. The term human being is actually incorrect, we are all human creatures. Even the Word is the first born of all creation and through him all other things were created under his Father's instructions, read Proverbs 8:22 onwards.

It is Jesus who said to his anointed: "I am in the father and the Father is in me; I am in you and you are in me." Now the correct reading of this is that they are all in accord with one another. But But the Trinitarian states that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are all 'equal' three in one. So using that same principle for Jesus' words we end up with 144,003! Also 1+1+1=3, yet according to the Trinitarian 1+1+1=1

I've heard of brainwarp, but this is ridiculus!Perhaps they all need a course in mathematics!

Since you cannot show me from the bible where it says that "there are three Gods", then you are the one whose counting Gods and not the bible.

The bible is clear that Yahweh alone is God and nobody else.
To believed that there are three Gods or many Gods is already unbiblical.
2 Kings 19:15
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Then Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said: “O LORD God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.
So what makes God, God? God is unique, one of a kind, he alone is distinct in his nature. He alone is Almighty, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Holy and Eternal. God's nature makes him separate and distinct from everyone and everything.
Is Jesus Almighty, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Holy and Eternal? Yes, therefore he is God.
Is Satan Almighty, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Holy and Eternal? No, therefore he is not God.

The Father and the Son are both Almighty and Mighty.
The Son has equality with the Father.
Philippians 2:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

"I ascend now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." So how could he be the God of himself?
Jesus has a God in his humanity.

First of all, let me school you on what Trinitarians do believed about God.
We believed that God is one and would always be one. He does not become many nor does become less.
Trinitarians do not used, 1+1+1 because you are adding God; you are making him many.
Trinitarians do not used, 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 because you are reducing God to 33 and 1/3%; you are making him less.

Trinitarians do used, 1X1X1 and 1/1/1 if you are looking for a mathematical formula that would explain the Trinity.
Despite all of these, all Trinitarians do agree that nothing in creation could be used to explain God; since God is not his creation and he is not bound by the laws of his creation. Even the mathematical formula of 1X1X1 and 1/1/1 will fall short at some point. In other words, no mathematical formula and nothing in creation can fully explain God; since everything in creation is finite and divisible, while God is infinite and indivisible.

God is one infinite, indivisible being; he cannot be added, subtracted nor even divided.
He is one and would always be one; even if he is three persons.

Last Edit: Aug 18, 2013 4:15:08 GMT -5 by bornagainchristian

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Jesus and His God

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