Revelation 4 New King James Version (NKJV) The Throne Room of Heaven
4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
He who is depicted as sitting on the throne is not Jesus, but the unipersonal God of Jesus.
3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”
THIS IS HOW JOHN DESCRIBES THE THRONE ROOM IN HEAVEN: THE FATHER, TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS, SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES WERE MENTIONED BEING PRESENT. IS THERE SOMEBODY MISSING? WHY WAS HE NOT MENTIONED BEING PRESENT? HOW COME SUDDENLY HE APPEARED IN CHAPTER 5 WITHOUT HIM MENTIONING IN CHAPTER 4? WHERE WAS HE?
Why are these questions being asked? Without knowing what point is being raised by the questions presented, I can only answer in somewhat general terms.
I will not, at this point, discuss all the symbolism in Revelation 4 and 5, but please note that all the angels who are able to see God in heaven (Matthew 18:10) are also not mentioned in Revelation 4.
Revelation 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, (a voice) as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.(ASV)
The vision was not given to show what heaven is like, nor to tell all about everyone who is around God’s throne in heaven, but it was intended to illustrate by way “signs”, symbols, some important lessons about God’s plan. Heaven is not speaking of where God and the faithful angels are, but it is speaking of the figurative heaven, which many refer to as the Ecclesiastical heaven. The throne being depicted is not a physical throne, but is figurative of rulership.
Chapter 4 is setting the stage for chapter 5. In Chapter 5, we see John weeping, because no one had been found worthy to open the scroll. What can be seen from a study of these two chapter is that they show us what was necessary to happen in order for mankind to be saved. The solution as we all know was Christ laying down his life as a sacrifice and we can see that portrayed by the lamb in chapter 5. Chapters 4-5, in turn, set the stage for the opening of the seven seals. Those seals provide a figurative picture of the history of the falling away of the false church system. That falling away started in the time of the early church and continues yet today.
As is generally true of prophetic messages, things are not always presented in full sequence. The emphasis on the completed plan may be given, while that which follows may return to events earlier. Thus, chapter five gives a reference to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-5), which starts during the millennial age (Revelation 20:1-4), where it shows all of mankind recognizing Christ's right to rule (Revelation 5:13). On the other hand, references to earlier events may be given in order to set the stage. Jesus did not become the lamb that was slain until he died, figuratively, as a lamb that had been slain. The figurative lamb that was slain is not Jehovah God Almighty, who is, was, and is to come of Revelation 4:8.
The vision thus first refers back to the situation with God’s plan as it was before the first advent. Prior to the first advent we had Abraham’s covenant, which promised salvation through his seed, but it didn’t explain exactly how it was to be accomplished. Two different covenants are involved, pictured by the two women, Hagar and Sarah. (Galatians 4:24-26) One of these covenants is the Law Covenant, and the other is the covenant made 430 years before the Law Covenant, which covenant is pictured being barren, while children of the slave woman become many. – Galatians 3:17; 4:27.
Taken in connection with Paul's statements in Galatians 3 and 4, and other scriptures, we find the the Law Covenant could not bring justification due to the sinful flesh that mankind has received through Adam's disobedience. (Romans 5:12-19; 8:3; Galatians 3:10,11) The Law Covenant proved weak in that man was not able to justify himself, to make himself straight. (Ecclesiastes 7:13; Romans 8:3) In order to balance the scales of justice and thus offset the condemnation in Adam, an exact equivalent to Adam (before he sinned) would be needed, who, having proven his full obedience, could offer himself to pay the wages of sin for Adam and all who are dying in Adam. – 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Timothy 2:5,6.
Thus, a sinless human being was needed, but none could be found amongst Adam’s descendants, for all of Adam’s offspring have been made crooked so that none could make himself straight. (Ecclesiastes 1:13-15) No new creation could come from the crooked generation through Adam. (Ecclesiastes 1:9,10) Thus, God brought forth a new creation amongst man aside from the condemnation that is in Adam, when he prepared a body for Jesus, who was begotten of the spirit as a human being. (Matthew 1:10; Hebrews 10:5) Jesus, therefore, was one who could prove himself worthy to open the scroll of God’s plan, if he, unlike Adam, remained a sinless man, so that he could offer his sinless body in sacrifice to pay the wages of sin for Adam and all who are dying in Adam, by which sacrifice he became the figurative lamb that was slain.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 16, 2013 18:07:06 GMT -5
ALTHOUGH THERE ARE A LOT OF SYMBOLISM AND REPRESENTATIONS ON THIS CHAPTER OF REVELATION; THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS NOT A LITERAL EVENT, A LITERAL PLACE, A LITERAL THRONE AND LITERAL BEINGS. LITERAL EVENT - (STILL FUTURE) THE COMMENCEMENT OF THIS EVENT WOULD HAPPEN AFTER THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH LITERAL PLACE - THE THIRD HEAVEN LITERAL THRONE - ALTHOUGH GOD IS NOT A PHYSICAL BEING WHO SITS, BUT THE SON WHO IS DEPICTED AS THE LAMB HAS PHYSICAL GLORIFIED BODY WHO CAN SIT LITERAL BEINGS - ONE SAT ON THE THRONE, TWENTY FOUR ELDERS, SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND FOUR LIVING CREATURES
IN ORDER FOR US TO ADVANCE ON THIS TOPIC, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS: THIS IS HOW JOHN DESCRIBES THE THRONE ROOM IN HEAVEN: THE FATHER, TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS, SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES WERE MENTIONED BEING PRESENT. IS THERE SOMEBODY MISSING? WHY WAS HE NOT MENTIONED BEING PRESENT? HOW COME SUDDENLY HE APPEARED IN CHAPTER 5 WITHOUT HIM MENTIONING IN CHAPTER 4? WHERE WAS HE?
ALTHOUGH THERE ARE A LOT OF SYMBOLISM AND REPRESENTATIONS ON THIS CHAPTER OF REVELATION; THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS NOT A LITERAL EVENT, A LITERAL PLACE, A LITERAL THRONE AND LITERAL BEINGS.
By literal, do you mean material? "Throne" in the book of Revelation means rulership, not a literal chair upon which one sits. That which is given in symbolism does indeed however represent literal places and events as well as literal beings.
The only "third heaven" that is mentioned in the Bible is in 2 Corinthians 12:2, which is in reference the third ruling spiritual power over mankind, the "new heavens" of 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1. See my study: The Third Heaven and Paradise life.rlbible.com/?p=119
Revelation 5:13 does speak of that time, for it is only after Jesus returns that he sets up God's kingdom over all that nations, which eventually results in every living creature in heaven and on earth giving glory to God and to Jesus.
LITERAL BEINGS - ONE SAT ON THE THRONE, TWENTY FOUR ELDERS, SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND FOUR LIVING CREATURES
IN ORDER FOR US TO ADVANCE ON THIS TOPIC, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS: THIS IS HOW JOHN DESCRIBES THE THRONE ROOM IN HEAVEN: THE FATHER, TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS, SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES WERE MENTIONED BEING PRESENT. IS THERE SOMEBODY MISSING? WHY WAS HE NOT MENTIONED BEING PRESENT? HOW COME SUDDENLY HE APPEARED IN CHAPTER 5 WITHOUT HIM MENTIONING IN CHAPTER 4? WHERE WAS HE?
The entire scene is a spiritual depiction related the revealing of God's purposes and the revealing of Jesus as were as a lamb that had been slained. Since these are basically a repetition of the earlier questions, and since I have already answered these to the best of my ability, there is not much more I can say that I have not already said.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 30, 2013 21:28:34 GMT -5
So right now we cannot advance on this thread until you answer all those questions. For now, that will remain a mystery to you until we resolved our differences in our eschatological interpretations.
So right now we cannot advance on this thread until you answer all those questions. For now, that will remain a mystery to you until we resolved our differences in our eschatological interpretations.
I have already given my answers; your denial of them does not mean that they are incorrect. Maybe later I will present more detailed study of Revelation 5 and 6.
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