Post by ResLight on Jun 14, 2013 21:59:06 GMT -5
I have been conversing with one who claims that the Logos of God means the thoughts of God, and the Logos, who became Jesus is not a person separate from his God and Fathr, but that he and his Father are both one person.
It was claimed: the logos, which in itself means a thought, and which thought is not a person, is identified to be the very thinker who is the theos or Elohim.
My response:
The Greek does not say that the Logos was “the” Theos, so if translated into Hebrew, it should not be translated as HaEL or HaElohim; it should, in Hebrew, be indefinite even as it is the Greek. It is similar to usage applied to Moses in Exodus 7:1, in which it is stated that God made, or gave, Moses to be a god, a mighty one, to Pharaoh.
Your assumptions are based on your pre-conception, evidently that the Logos is the thought of "its" God, rather than the default reasoning that the Logos is a person who is not his God.
John 3:12 NAS
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things ?
John 3:13 NAS
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven : the Son of [the]* Man.”
*The Greek has the definite article, designating the Son of the Man, David. Of course, before he descended from heaven that he could tell of heavenly things, he was not actually “the Son of the Man” David, except as he might have been reckoned, counted, as such perspectively. Even in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), since his human body of flesh was specially prepared by his God (Matthew 1:20; Hebrews 10:5), he was the Son of the Man David physically only in that his mother and his foster father were of that lineage; otherwise, he would have been born into the world as a part of the world that has been condemned in Adam’s sin.
See my studies:
The Seed of David
www.rlbible.com/atonement/?p=224
John 3:13 and Jesus’ Alleged Omniscience
www.rlbible.com/jesus/?p=2171
John 3:34 WEB
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
John 8:28 WEB
Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.
John 14:24 WEB
He who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words. The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me.
John 17:7 WEB
Now they know that all things whatever you have given me are from you,
John 17:8 WEB
for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came forth from you, and they believed that you sent me.
John 20:17 WEB
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
Ephesians 1:3 WEB
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
Revelaton 1:1 WEB
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,
Revelation 1:6 WEB
and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 3:12 WEB
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
Revelation 19:13 WEB
He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called "The Word of God."
Now, if the Logos is the "thought of God", how would this fit into John 1? Let us plug it in and see.
In [the thought of God] was life, and the life was the light of men. -- John 1:10.
One could imagine and assume that this is saying that the thought of God gives life, but that is not actually what it says. Nor could one say that Law Covenant actually gave life to anyone who was condemned in Adam, thus, while the Law Covenant could be said to be "light", it did not prove itself to be "light of men", nor the "light of life", for none were justified by that Law. -- John 8:12; 12:46; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20; 8:3; Galatians 2:21; 3:11,21; 5:4.
The verse is indeed referring to a person who, unlike the dying human race in Adam, had "life" in him. Jesus used a similar expression as recorded in John 6:53. Obviously, to have life in oneself means to have an uncondemned life, similar to what Adam had before Adam sinned. In the case of Jesus, however, God gave to Jesus, in his flesh, life that is not condemned in Adam, but unlike Adam, Jesus remained faithful to God, and never once sinned. Thus, Jesus "was" -- while he the days of his flesh -- the first to bring "life and incorruption" to lightl, making himself, while he was in the world condemned in Adam, the light of the world.
Now lets continue with John 1:5:
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn't overcome it.
Again, this light that shines in the darkness, and which has not been overcome by the darkness, is not the thought of God. The "light" through the Law Covenant proved ineffective, due to the weakness of the flesh. (Romans 8:3; Galatians 3:21) The Law did not bring life and incorruption to light. It was only through Jesus, who, while he was in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), while he was in the world condemned in Adam (John 9:5; Romans 5:12-19), was the Light of the world so that it could be said that the darkness that is in the world did not overcome him, and life and incorruption was brought to light. -- John 3:19; 9:5; 1 Timothy 1:10.
The light continues to shine, however, also in the followers of Jesus as they, as new creatures in Christ, are not of this condemned world. -- John 15:19; 17:14; Matthew 5:14; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:12; 1 Peter 2:9.
John 1:6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came as a witness, that he might testify about the light [of verses 4,5, the Logos of verse 1], that all might believe through him.
John 1:8 He was not the light, but was sent that he might testify about the light.
John 1:9 The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.
Was the "light"/"Logos" that John the Baptizer testified concerning the "thought of God"? Was it the Law Covenant through Moses? No, John the Baptizer testified concerning person, who, although he had already been born into world, was about to make his appearance to the world as the one promised in the Law of Moses. John wrote that the Logos is the true light that enlightens everyone, and was obviously referring to a person. This light of John 1:4-9, then, was certainly not the Law Covenant, for it had already been in the world for hundreds of years. Jesus, although he had already been physically in the world for 30 years, had not been manifested as the light of the world. It is in this manner that he who is the Light [the Logos] was "coming into the world."
John 1:10 He [the Logos, the Light] was in the world, and the world was made through him [the Logos, the Light], and the world didn't recognize him [the Logos, the Light].
John 1:11 He came to his own, and those who were his own didn't receive him.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name.
Was John writing that it was the thought of God that was in the world, and that world was made through the thought of God, that the world did not recognize the thought of God, that the thought of God came to his own, that those who were his own did not receive the thought of God, but as many as received the thought of God, to them the thought of God gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in the name of the thought of God? Does that really make sense?
John 1:14 The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John testified about him. He cried out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me, for he was before me.'"
John 1:16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace.
John is still speaking of the Logos of verse 1, that the Logos became flesh; the Logos lived amongst them, that the disciples saw the glory of the Logos, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full grace and truth; John writes that John the Baptizer testified concerning this Logos (the Light of verse 8), that this Logos, obviously the man Christ Jesus was before John the Baptizer, etc. Was John writing about the the thought of God, that the thought of God became flesh and the the thought of God lived amongst them, and the dsiciples saw the glory of the thought of God, which glory was as of the only Son of the Father, etc.? Obviously, this is not what is meant. The Logos is indeed a person, and not just the thought of God.
God willing, I hope to edit this thread, and move it to:
jesus.rlbible.com/?p=5809
It was claimed: the logos, which in itself means a thought, and which thought is not a person, is identified to be the very thinker who is the theos or Elohim.
My response:
The Greek does not say that the Logos was “the” Theos, so if translated into Hebrew, it should not be translated as HaEL or HaElohim; it should, in Hebrew, be indefinite even as it is the Greek. It is similar to usage applied to Moses in Exodus 7:1, in which it is stated that God made, or gave, Moses to be a god, a mighty one, to Pharaoh.
Your assumptions are based on your pre-conception, evidently that the Logos is the thought of "its" God, rather than the default reasoning that the Logos is a person who is not his God.
John 3:12 NAS
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things ?
John 3:13 NAS
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven : the Son of [the]* Man.”
*The Greek has the definite article, designating the Son of the Man, David. Of course, before he descended from heaven that he could tell of heavenly things, he was not actually “the Son of the Man” David, except as he might have been reckoned, counted, as such perspectively. Even in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), since his human body of flesh was specially prepared by his God (Matthew 1:20; Hebrews 10:5), he was the Son of the Man David physically only in that his mother and his foster father were of that lineage; otherwise, he would have been born into the world as a part of the world that has been condemned in Adam’s sin.
See my studies:
The Seed of David
www.rlbible.com/atonement/?p=224
John 3:13 and Jesus’ Alleged Omniscience
www.rlbible.com/jesus/?p=2171
John 3:34 WEB
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
John 8:28 WEB
Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.
John 14:24 WEB
He who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words. The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me.
John 17:7 WEB
Now they know that all things whatever you have given me are from you,
John 17:8 WEB
for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came forth from you, and they believed that you sent me.
John 20:17 WEB
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
Ephesians 1:3 WEB
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
Revelaton 1:1 WEB
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,
Revelation 1:6 WEB
and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 3:12 WEB
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
Revelation 19:13 WEB
He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called "The Word of God."
Now, if the Logos is the "thought of God", how would this fit into John 1? Let us plug it in and see.
In [the thought of God] was life, and the life was the light of men. -- John 1:10.
One could imagine and assume that this is saying that the thought of God gives life, but that is not actually what it says. Nor could one say that Law Covenant actually gave life to anyone who was condemned in Adam, thus, while the Law Covenant could be said to be "light", it did not prove itself to be "light of men", nor the "light of life", for none were justified by that Law. -- John 8:12; 12:46; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20; 8:3; Galatians 2:21; 3:11,21; 5:4.
The verse is indeed referring to a person who, unlike the dying human race in Adam, had "life" in him. Jesus used a similar expression as recorded in John 6:53. Obviously, to have life in oneself means to have an uncondemned life, similar to what Adam had before Adam sinned. In the case of Jesus, however, God gave to Jesus, in his flesh, life that is not condemned in Adam, but unlike Adam, Jesus remained faithful to God, and never once sinned. Thus, Jesus "was" -- while he the days of his flesh -- the first to bring "life and incorruption" to lightl, making himself, while he was in the world condemned in Adam, the light of the world.
Now lets continue with John 1:5:
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn't overcome it.
Again, this light that shines in the darkness, and which has not been overcome by the darkness, is not the thought of God. The "light" through the Law Covenant proved ineffective, due to the weakness of the flesh. (Romans 8:3; Galatians 3:21) The Law did not bring life and incorruption to light. It was only through Jesus, who, while he was in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), while he was in the world condemned in Adam (John 9:5; Romans 5:12-19), was the Light of the world so that it could be said that the darkness that is in the world did not overcome him, and life and incorruption was brought to light. -- John 3:19; 9:5; 1 Timothy 1:10.
The light continues to shine, however, also in the followers of Jesus as they, as new creatures in Christ, are not of this condemned world. -- John 15:19; 17:14; Matthew 5:14; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:12; 1 Peter 2:9.
John 1:6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came as a witness, that he might testify about the light [of verses 4,5, the Logos of verse 1], that all might believe through him.
John 1:8 He was not the light, but was sent that he might testify about the light.
John 1:9 The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.
Was the "light"/"Logos" that John the Baptizer testified concerning the "thought of God"? Was it the Law Covenant through Moses? No, John the Baptizer testified concerning person, who, although he had already been born into world, was about to make his appearance to the world as the one promised in the Law of Moses. John wrote that the Logos is the true light that enlightens everyone, and was obviously referring to a person. This light of John 1:4-9, then, was certainly not the Law Covenant, for it had already been in the world for hundreds of years. Jesus, although he had already been physically in the world for 30 years, had not been manifested as the light of the world. It is in this manner that he who is the Light [the Logos] was "coming into the world."
John 1:10 He [the Logos, the Light] was in the world, and the world was made through him [the Logos, the Light], and the world didn't recognize him [the Logos, the Light].
John 1:11 He came to his own, and those who were his own didn't receive him.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name.
Was John writing that it was the thought of God that was in the world, and that world was made through the thought of God, that the world did not recognize the thought of God, that the thought of God came to his own, that those who were his own did not receive the thought of God, but as many as received the thought of God, to them the thought of God gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in the name of the thought of God? Does that really make sense?
John 1:14 The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John testified about him. He cried out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me, for he was before me.'"
John 1:16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace.
John is still speaking of the Logos of verse 1, that the Logos became flesh; the Logos lived amongst them, that the disciples saw the glory of the Logos, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full grace and truth; John writes that John the Baptizer testified concerning this Logos (the Light of verse 8), that this Logos, obviously the man Christ Jesus was before John the Baptizer, etc. Was John writing about the the thought of God, that the thought of God became flesh and the the thought of God lived amongst them, and the dsiciples saw the glory of the thought of God, which glory was as of the only Son of the Father, etc.? Obviously, this is not what is meant. The Logos is indeed a person, and not just the thought of God.
God willing, I hope to edit this thread, and move it to:
jesus.rlbible.com/?p=5809
