To properly call upon the name of Jesus is to also call upon the name of Jehovah, since Jesus came in the name of Jehovah, and Jesus represented Jehovah, all to the glory of Jehovah. This does not mean that Jesus is Jehovah who sent Jesus. The one sent is not greater than he who sent him. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 [Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4]; Matthew 4:7 [Deuteronomy 6:16]; Matthew 4:10 [Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8]; Matthew 10:40; Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 [Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23]; Mark 9:37; 14:36; 15:34; Luke 9:48; 22:42; John 4:3; 5:24,30; 6:38,44,57; 7:16,18; 8:18,26; 12:44,45,49; 13:16,20; 14:24; 17:1,3,12; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 4:10; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
Post by Born Again Christian on Jun 23, 2013 2:50:20 GMT -5
Yes, Christians can call upon the name of Jesus because Jesus is "Jehovah who saves". So whenever we are calling on the name of Jesus, we are calling on the name of Jehovah who saves. Of course, the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. (Distinction of Persons) Of course, the person of the Father is greater than the Son. (Difference in Authority)
Yes, Christians can call upon the name of Jesus because Jesus is "Jehovah who saves". So whenever we are calling on the name of Jesus, we are calling on the name of Jehovah who saves. Of course, the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. (Distinction of Persons) Of course, the person of the Father is greater than the Son. (Difference in Authority)
I agree that when ever we properly call upon the name of Jesus (see: Matthew 7:15-24) we are also calling upon the name of the God and Father of Jesus. If, however, the name Jesus (Joshua, Jeshua) means "Jehovah who saves", this cannot mean that Jesus is Jehovah, otherwise, to be consistent, we would have to reason that everyone in the scriptures who bears this name must also be Jehovah.
I do agree that the Father, the only true God is not the Son, that the Son is not the only true God, his Father. Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. -- John 17:3.
I also agree that the person of the only true God, the Father of Jesus, is greater than the Son. The Son is not the Most High, Yahweh.
The default reasoning is, therefore, that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but rather the the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent His Son.
Yahweh is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yahweh the Father Yahweh the Son Yahweh the Spirit They are not three Yahwehs but one Yahweh.
God is infinite and indivisible; Him being three persons does not make Him three Gods.
While the Bible does identify the Father as Yahweh, and that the Holy Spirit belongs to Yahweh (Isaiah 61:1; Ephesians 4:3), I have no scriptural reason to imagine, assume and add to the scritpures that Jesus is Yahweh the Son. There is but one Yahweh, and that one Yahweh is He would anointed and sent His Son as the prophet like Moses. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 17:3; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 23, 2013 3:08:16 GMT -5
IT IS TRUE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE YAHWEH BUT THIS ONE YAHWEH IS NOT RESTRICTED TO ONLY ONE PERSON. YAHWEH THE FATHER CAN SEND YAHWEH THE SON. DON'T WORRY AS WE GO ALONG, WE WILL GET THERE.
IT IS TRUE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE YAHWEH BUT THIS ONE YAHWEH IS NOT RESTRICTED TO ONLY ONE PERSON. YAHWEH THE FATHER CAN SEND YAHWEH THE SON. DON'T WORRY AS WE GO ALONG, WE WILL GET THERE.
Since, in the Bible, Yahweh never once reveals Himself as being more than one person, and since He is always revealed as though one person, there is no need to add to the Bible that He is more than one person.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 30, 2013 21:36:11 GMT -5
This is the reason why I'm giving you all the proofs that Yahweh was not only revealed in the person of the Father. We do believed in all the verses where Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Father but none of those verses ever say that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father".
Let me clarify to you, maybe you have a misunderstanding on what we believed.
The Father is Yahweh (100% God) The Son is Yahweh (100% God) The Holy Spirit is Yahweh (100% God) They are not three Yahwehs but one Yahweh They are not three Gods but one God
The Father is 100% God, He does not need the Son nor the Holy Spirit to be one God. He can reveal himself as one Yahweh.
This is the reason why I'm giving you all the proofs that Yahweh was not only revealed in the person of the Father. We do believed in all the verses where Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Father but none of those verses ever say that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father".
Since the default reasoning is that Yahweh is only one person, there would be no reason for any scritpure to say "Yahweh is only the person of the Father."
Let me clarify to you, maybe you have a misunderstanding on what we believed.
The Father is Yahweh (100% God) The Son is Yahweh (100% God) The Holy Spirit is Yahweh (100% God) They are not three Yahwehs but one Yahweh They are not three Gods but one God
The Father is 100% God, He does not need the Son nor the Holy Spirit to be one God. He can reveal himself as one Yahweh.
I have then understood you correctly; I still have no scriptural reason, however, to use the spirit of human imagination so as to add what you are stating to the scriptures.
Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 5, 2013 3:24:54 GMT -5
Since the default reasoning is that Yahweh is only one person, there would be no reason for any scritpure to say "Yahweh is only the person of the Father."
This is not true. The default reasoning is that "Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Father" but not that "Yahweh is revealed only in the person of the Father". There are also verses where "Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Son and the Holy Spirit". This is one legitimate reason for me to ask you the verse where it says that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person".
There is also one more reason for the bible to say that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person" if your Theological Doctrine is correct. We know that the bible is full of verses saying that "there is only one God". Why? Because the dominant religions during that time are Polytheistic Religions (religions that believed in many gods). God is really making sure that his people should be Monotheistic. Now, if God knew ahead of time that "Trinity" would be the dominant belief among Christianity; should he also make sure that the bible would be full of verses that says "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person"?
Since the default reasoning is that Yahweh is only one person, there would be no reason for any scritpure to say "Yahweh is only the person of the Father."
This is not true. The default reasoning is that "Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Father" but not that "Yahweh is revealed only in the person of the Father".
The above appears to be setting up a strawman argument; I never claimed that "Yahweh is revealed only in the person of the Father". The default reasoning is not that Yahweh is is revealed only in the person of the Father, but that Yahweh is only one person, that is, He who sent His Son, speaks through His Son, etc.
There are also verses where "Yahweh is revealed in the person of the Son and the Holy Spirit".
Yes, as foretold (Deuteronomy 18:15-190, the only true God did indeed send His Son (John 17:1,3) to tell us about the only true God and that we may know the only true God through him; this does not mean that Jesus is the only true God, or that Jesus is a person of the only the true God.
This is one legitimate reason for me to ask you the verse where it says that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person".
You whatever you wish to imagine and assume; the default reasoning is still that Jesus is not the only true God who sent Jesus.
There is also one more reason for the bible to say that "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person" if your Theological Doctrine is correct. We know that the bible is full of verses saying that "there is only one God". Why? Because the dominant religions during that time are Polytheistic Religions (religions that believed in many gods). God is really making sure that his people should be Monotheistic. Now, if God knew ahead of time that "Trinity" would be the dominant belief among Christianity; should he also make sure that the bible would be full of verses that says "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person"?
2 Thessalonians 2:11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; 2 Thessalonians 2:12 that they all might be judged who didn't believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The working of error denies the basis for righteousness in Christ, since it would have it that Jesus is still a human being; further, it justifies sin in the flesh (rather than condemning sin the flesh -- Romans 8:3), for it makes appear that in order for a sinless man to obey God, that sinless would need to be God.
No, I have no reason to imagine, assume and add to the Bible any of the reasonings given to claim that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or that he is a person of Yahweh. Nothing in the Bible ever once presents any idea at all that Yahweh is more than one person or individual.
Yes, I am sure that Yahweh did indeed know that there would be an apostasy, since the Bible tells us that there would be an apostasy. Nevertheless, the scriptures are indeed written in such a way that would allow those who wish to think beyond what is written to add their imaginations to the scriptures.
The Bible does indeed present a monotheistic view that there is only one true Supreme Being; there are not a lot of different Supreme Beings. At the same time, the Bible allows that the angels are GOD, that the sons of Most High are god (mighty); etc.; certainly the default reasoning is that Jesus is not the only true God who sent him, but that he is mighty, a mighty one, similar to the same way that the angels are GOD -- mighty. Since the entire Bible is fully in harmony with itself without creating the trinity concept and reading that concept into the Bible, there is indeed no reason to create the trinity concept and then read such a concept into the Bible.
Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 21, 2013 6:46:30 GMT -5
In the bible, Yahweh is presented in the person of the Father. Whenever Yahweh is presented in the person of the Father, of course Yahweh there on those verses is one person in the person of the Father. But to say that Yahweh is only presented in the person of the Father is false. Yahweh is also presented in the person of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Yes, the true God (Father) sends the true God (Son). They are not two true Gods, but only one true God since God is one infinite, indivisible being; him being two persons, does not make him two Gods.
The bible is clear that there is only one God. The bible is also clear that this only one God is not only the person of the Father nor that he is only one person. He is three persons. This is the main reason why you would never find any verse that says "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person".
In the bible, Yahweh is presented in the person of the Father. Whenever Yahweh is presented in the person of the Father, of course Yahweh there on those verses is one person in the person of the Father. But to say that Yahweh is only presented in the person of the Father is false. Yahweh is also presented in the person of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Of course, Yahweh can manifest Himself through His Son, and/or through His Holy Spirit. This does not mean that we need to add to the Bible that Yahweh's Son and Yahweh's Holy Spirit are Yahweh, and then add to that this means that Yahweh's Son is a person of Yahweh, and that Yahweh's Holy Spirit is a person of Yahweh, etc.
but only one true God since God is one infinite, indivisible being; him being two persons, does not make him two Gods.
Nor does the assumption that Yahweh is two or more persons make that assumption so. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is ALWAYS -- throughout the Bible -- present as one person; never as more than one person.
The bible is clear that there is only one God. The bible is also clear that this only one God is not only the person of the Father nor that he is only one person. He is three persons.
Since the Bible never once at any place or time presents Yahweh as being more than one person, the above statment that the Bible is "clear" that he such is false.
This is the main reason why you would never find any verse that says "Yahweh is only the person of the Father" and "Yahweh is only one person".
There would be no reason for the Bible to state the obvious and default reasoning, especially since the Bible never once ever presents Yahweh as being more than one person.
Last Edit: Sept 24, 2013 8:16:00 GMT -5 by ResLight