Post by bornagainchristian on Jun 23, 2013 6:14:28 GMT -5
John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Similarities between John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20 Who is the only true God? a) First, it was written by the same person, John. b) Second, eternal life were present in both. c) Third, knowing the Father and the Son were present in both. d) Fourth, true God were present in both. e) If you really try to understand John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20, they were really identical to each other. In what way? They were both saying that: ETERNAL LIFE IS KNOWING THE FATHER AND THE SON AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Similarities between John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20 Who is the only true God? a) First, it was written by the same person, John. b) Second, eternal life were present in both. c) Third, knowing the Father and the Son were present in both. d) Fourth, true God were present in both. e) If you really try to understand John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20, they were really identical to each other. In what way? They were both saying that: ETERNAL LIFE IS KNOWING THE FATHER AND THE SON AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
In reality, there is nothing in either John 17:3 or 1 John 5:20 that says that one has to know both the Fathare and His Son "as the only true God". Indeed, Jesus, rather than saying that he is the only true God, stated that he had been sent by the only true God.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 6, 2013 2:44:22 GMT -5
OF COURSE, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE TRUE GOD TO SEND ANOTHER TRUE GOD AND YET BOTH CAN BE CALLED THE ONLY TRUE GOD. GOD IS INFINITE AND INDIVISIBLE, HIM BEING TWO PERSONS DOES NOT MAKE HIM TWO GODS.
John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
IF JESUS' DISCIPLES BEING JEWS ALREADY KNEW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, THEN WHY WOULD HE STILL NEED TO PRAY FOR THEM TO KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD? WHY DID JESUS USED "AND" AND EVEN ADDING HIMSELF?
OF COURSE, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE TRUE GOD TO SEND ANOTHER TRUE GOD AND YET BOTH CAN BE CALLED THE ONLY TRUE GOD. GOD IS INFINITE AND INDIVISIBLE, HIM BEING TWO PERSONS DOES NOT MAKE HIM TWO GODS.
John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
And the scripure still identifies the Father as the only true MIGHT (Theos, God), and Jesus excludes himself from being that only true God by saying that he had been sent by the only true God.
IF JESUS' DISCIPLES BEING JEWS ALREADY KNEW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, THEN WHY WOULD HE STILL NEED TO PRAY FOR THEM TO KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Jesus was not addressing his disciples; he was addressing the only true God. Why he used the term "the only true God" while addressing the Father is not given; one could ask why did he add "who is in heaven" to the model prayer of Matthew 6:9. His disciples knew that the Father is in heaven, and God Himself knows that he is "in heaven".
However, in regards to John 17:3, it may have been that Jesus foreknew that some would later be claiming that he is the only true God, and thus felt a need to clarify that he was not that only true God by saying that he had been sent by the only true God.
Jesus added himself because he had been sent by the only true God to declare the only true God (John 1:18) since one can only come to the only true God through Jesus whom the only true God sent. -- John 14:6,10; Romans 3:24-26; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 John 2:1,2,23; 4:10; 2 John 1:9.
Last Edit: Jul 11, 2013 23:32:17 GMT -5 by ResLight
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 15, 2013 3:59:36 GMT -5
Jesus was not addressing his disciples; he was addressing the only true God. Why he used the term "the only true God" while addressing the Father is not given; one could ask why did he add "who is in heaven" to the model prayer of Matthew 6:9. His disciples knew that the Father is in heaven, and God Himself knows that he is "in heaven".
JESUS IS NOT ADDRESSING HIS DISCIPLES; HE IS PRAYING FOR HIS DISCIPLES THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD. MATTHEW 6:9 IS A MODEL PRAYER FOR HIS DISCIPLES; THE TERM "WHO IS IN HEAVEN" IS NOT ABOUT TELLING THEM THAT THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN; OF COURSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THIS. HERE'S WHAT IT MEANS: Which art in heaven - The phrase אבינו שבשמים, abinu sheboshemayim, our Father who art in heaven, was very common among the ancient Jews; and was used by them precisely in the same sense as it is used here by our Lord. This phrase in the Scriptures seems used to express: 1st. His Omnipresence. The heaven of heavens cannot contain thee. 1Ki_8:27 : that is, Thou fillest immensity. 2dly. His Majesty and Dominion over his creatures. Art thou not God in heaven, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the heathen? 2Ch_20:6. 3dly. His Power and Might. Art thou not God in heaven, and in thy hand is there not power and might, so that no creature is able to withstand thee! 2Ch_20:6. Our God is in heaven, and hath done whatsoever he pleased. BUT JESUS' PRAYER ON JOHN 17:3 IS FOR HIS DISCIPLES WHO ARE JEWS TO KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU; THEY KNEW VERY WELL.
However, in regards to John 17:3, it may have been that Jesus foreknew that some would later be claiming that he is the only true God, and thus felt a need to clarify that he was not that only true God by saying that he had been sent by the only true God.
TRINITARIANS DO NOT CLAIM THAT JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. TRINITARIANS CLAIM THAT THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT.
JESUS ADDED HIMSELF BECAUSE HIS DISCIPLES BEING JEWS, ONLY KNEW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. HE IS PRAYING FOR THEM TO KNOW THAT THE FATHER AND HIM ARE THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
JESUS IS NOT ADDRESSING HIS DISCIPLES; HE IS PRAYING FOR HIS DISCIPLES THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
Jesus was praying regarding anyone's knowing the only true God and also the one whom the only true God sent; to know the only true God and the one whom the only true God sent means eternal life. Jesus came to declare the only true God who sent him. (John 1:18) The only way to know the only true God is through the one whom the only true God sent. -- Matthew 11:27; John 8:19; 12:50; 14:6;
MATTHEW 6:9 IS A MODEL PRAYER FOR HIS DISCIPLES; THE TERM "WHO IS IN HEAVEN" IS NOT ABOUT TELLING THEM THAT THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN; OF COURSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THIS. HERE'S WHAT IT MEANS:
Evidently, the point is totally lost, and is being sidetracked.
TRINITARIANS DO NOT CLAIM THAT JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. TRINITARIANS CLAIM THAT THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT.
Again, the point is lost, and is being sidetracked. However, many trinitarians do indeed claim that Jesus is the only true God, even if in that claim they add the Father and the Holy Spirit.
JESUS ADDED HIMSELF BECAUSE HIS DISCIPLES BEING JEWS, ONLY KNEW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. HE IS PRAYING FOR THEM TO KNOW THAT THE FATHER AND HIM ARE THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
Where does Jesus ever pray for his followes to know that his Father and himself are the only true God? Jesus never prayed for such anywhere. He certainly did not pray for such in John 17:3.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 23, 2013 1:09:42 GMT -5
I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN MY POINT. I CANNOT CHANGE YOUR HEART, ONLY GOD CAN; IF YOU ARE WILLING. THE ONLY THING I CAN DO IS TO PRESENT THE ARGUMENTS; THAT IS UP TO YOU AND THE READERS TO BELIEVE THEM OR NOT.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN MY POINT. I CANNOT CHANGE YOUR HEART, ONLY GOD CAN; IF YOU ARE WILLING. THE ONLY THING I CAN DO IS TO PRESENT THE ARGUMENTS; THAT IS UP TO YOU AND THE READERS TO BELIEVE THEM OR NOT.
What point have you proven? I simply give, to the best of my ability, what the scriptures say and what they do not say. Jesus never once claimed to be the only true God; he did claim to be sent by the only true God.
Post by bornagainchristian on Jul 24, 2013 0:25:31 GMT -5
THESE ARE THE POINTS I HAVE PROVEN: 1) THAT JOHN 17:3 AND 1ST JOHN 5:20 ARE IDENTICAL VERSES 2) THAT THE ONE WHO SEND (FATHER) AND THE ONE SENT (SON) ARE THE ONLY TRUE GOD 3) AND THAT KNOWING THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS VITAL OR IMPORTANT IN OUR SALVATION
THESE ARE THE POINTS I HAVE PROVEN: 1) THAT JOHN 17:3 AND 1ST JOHN 5:20 ARE IDENTICAL VERSES
Making this assertion does not mean that you have "proved" anything. In John 17:3 only one is identified as the only true God; the one sent by the only true God is not identified as being the "only true God".
We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. -- 1 John 5:20, World English.
1 John 5:20 oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou heekei kai WE HAVE KNOWN BUT THAT THE SON OF THE GOD IS COME, AND 1492_5 1161 3754 3588 5207 3588 2316 2240 2532 dedwken heemin dianoian hina ginwskomen HE HAS GIVEN TO US MENTAL PERCEPTION IN ORDER THAT WE ARE KNOWING 1325 1473_9 1271 2443 1097 ton aleethinon kai esmen en tw aleethinw en tw THE TRUE (ONE); AND WE ARE IN THE TRUE (ONE), IN THE 3588 0228 2532 1510_3 1722 3588 0228 1722 3588 huiw autou ieesou christw houtos estin ho SON OF HIM TO JESUS CHRIST. THIS (ONE) IS THE 5207 0846_3 2424 5547 3778 1510_2 3588 aleethinos theos kai zwee aiwnios TRUE GOD AND LIFE EVERLASTING. 0228 2316 2532 2222 0166 Westcott & Hort Interlinear
In 1 John 5:20, the one who is true has a son; it is the one who is true who is being identified as "the true God", not the son. "Him who is true" is not Jesus, but "him who is true" has a son, and it is the son of "Him who is true" who is Jesus. I believe many trinitarian Greek scholars will recognize this also. Robertson states:
This (outo). Grammatically outo may refer to Jesus Christ or to "the True One." It is a bit tautological to refer it to God, but that is probably correct, God in Christ, at any rate. God is eternal life ( John 5:26 ) and he gives it to us through Christ.
3) AND THAT KNOWING THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS VITAL OR IMPORTANT IN OUR SALVATION
I can say that knowing both the only true God and also the one whom the only true God sent is vital for one have eternal life, as the scripture says. -- John 17:3.
Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 1, 2013 23:56:07 GMT -5
The true God in 1st John 5:20 is the Father and the Son because both of them are eternal life.
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
The true God in 1st John 5:20 is the Father and the Son because both of them are eternal life.
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
This really presents nothing new and is basically a repetition of what has already been claimed, and does not actually address what has been posted in response.
"Him who is true" corresponds with the "only true God", and "his Son" is distinguished from being "him who is true" in 1 John 5:20. In 1 John 5:20, the emphasis is on knowing "him who is true", for we read "we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true." We cannot have know "Him who is true" except through the one whom "Him who is true" has sent. This agrees with John 17:3, which identifies only one person as being the only true God, and distinguishes Jesus from being the only true God by saying that the only true God had sent Jesus. Jesus then says to the only true God: "the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me." (John 17:8) And the further states to the only true God: "I have given them Your word." (John 17:14) And he says to the only true God: "You sent Me into the world." -- John 17:18.
The only way that we have eternal life is through the ransom sacrifice of the man, Christ Jesus. This was one of the main reasons that "Him who is true" sent His Son into the world, that he should become the savior of the world. (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:9,10,14) It was because Jesus declared the invisible unipersonal God to us (John 1:18; Colossians 1:15), and was obedient to death (Philippians 2:8) that we can come to know Him who is true by means of Jesus. Thus, it is indeed important to know Jesus, if we would know "Him who is true."
Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 6, 2013 4:17:13 GMT -5
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
The text is clear that whoever is this true God is also the eternal life. If you can prove to me that the Father alone is the eternal life and not the Son, then the Father is the true God here in this verse.
1 John 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
The text is clear that whoever is this true God is also the eternal life. If you can prove to me that the Father alone is the eternal life and not the Son, then the Father is the true God here in this verse.
"Him who is true" is the true God and Eternal Life. I have no need to prove to you that the Father alone is the eternal life, for I certainly do not believe that the only true God (John 17:1,3) alone is the eternal life. Eternal life is of the only true God, through His son. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6.
A scripture that has similar construct in John's writings is 2 John 1:7:
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don't confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the Antichrist.
John was not saying Jesus Christ is the deceiver and the Antichrist, and most would recognize that in this verse. The antecedent of "This" refers back to "those who don't confess", although Jesus Christ is nearer in the sentence to "This" thatn "those who don't confess".
Post by bornagainchristian on Aug 21, 2013 3:21:32 GMT -5
Eternal life is of the only true God, through His son. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Then you are agreeing with me that in this verse, 1st John 5:20; the Father and the Son are both eternal life. If the true God is also the eternal life, then the Father and the Son are the true God in this verse.
I have never used the antecedent argument; I don't know why you are posting it. The antecedent argument is only for those people who believed that the Son is the true God here in 1st John 5:20 and not the Father. I believed that the true God here in 1st John 5:20 is the Father and the Son; just like I believed that the only true God in John 17:3 is also the Father and the Son, since these two verses are identical twin.
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